7. Bill Dunn - Celgar Pulp, Castlegar

I would like to believe that progress can be made in the apprenticeship program but I think if anybody here is associated with the Trade Advisory Committee, there is some real politics going on in that arena as well.

I think as the unions are looking for security in our business, so they are in the construction business. So this thing about the apprenticeship~programs and the restrictive language growing there. thing that we are mixing two political wars together if we do that. I think the key in this thing is pretty well where it's been put on the table. The unions are looking for job security and less contracting out, and if we are able to be more efficient and do less contracting out, and keep present manning levels within the mills where they are or maybe slightly above, to the benefit of the employees and the benefit of the employers, that to me is a natural. I don't know why we would change that course. I think that some of the things you said about being patient, it is going to take 2 or 3 sets of negotiations, and they must see a benefit to it. I think that If they get this thing about their security, feeling better about that, then I think the employers can be successful as well. But, offering people early retirement and thinking you are going to get apprenticeship programs, I have a real hard time with that.

Brian:

Bill, you and I totally disagree in one context, you are saying go one direction only. I am saying - go in these directions. Over time you also have to push this other development as well. It's got to come from the bottom. It's got to come from the top. We have to move ahead. I agree totally with you that you have to give them security, you have to let them know that you are not bushwhacking in terms of contracting out, and people aren't hitting the bricks, hitting the streets. On the other hand, you have to say of your apprenticeship program - there is another way you can bring it around. All I can say is that maybe make more emphasis on one than the other, but you can't lose sight of the fact that you have got to bring in the new blood. It will take time.

8. George Wright - Repap, Manitoba

I am restricted because my apprenticeship program has control from within. I can't bring anybody in off the street. All my apprentices have to come generally from Operations and they are awarded through seniority.

Brian:

And you are responsible for the training program for those apprentices. And I am saying -just be careful who trains them and what you train them in.